Curse

Cuilan · May 16, 2010, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nubarus

That's because the PvX builds are pretty badly made, it pretty much only works if you use that no brainer sab/discord bull heroes.

Did you see this build? The variant/optionals are self defense, AoE, stance removal, attack speed increase, etc.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:D/W_Attack_Spammer

Nubarus · May 16, 2010, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Did you see this build? The variant/optionals are self defense, AoE, stance removal, attack speed increase, etc.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build

/W_Attack_Spammer

Seen it, does not meet the self defense a D can actually provide, it's also missing good prevention enchantments.

As I said, most of the sad PvX builds are completely designed for using them crappy 3 necro bs heroes.

Truly pathetic..........

NerfHerder · May 16, 2010, 01:51 PM // 13:51

I have to agree, after trying every build and then some, the Zealous Vow build is probably the highest damage build for the Dervish. I put points into Earth Prayers for Conviction. I trade Protector's Strike for Pious Restoration if I expect a bunch of hexes.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:PvXDecode

I really dont even like that build. It runs like the Warrior and Assassin scythe builds, and has nothing Dervish about it. It doesnt need Mysticism and doesnt use enchantments the way a Dervish was designed to do. And you have to put 12 attribute points into Wind for one skill(what a waste). But, I use it most the time anyway.

I really enjoy Wounding Strike mixed with Earth Prayer enchantments and some of the Avatars. But almost all of those really suck at energy management. Maybe sometime this fall we will get a Dervish skill update, and get a PvE Meta build for 2 months before GW2 comes out

maxxfury · May 16, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

A front line class's defense is the backline...spec for output and kill things like warriors and sins do....the self defence and enchants really dont hold up as been very viable in *insert some stupidly high %* of pve.. take Sy for your team and let your backline do its job while you do yours..

/waves...monks/rits/er infuzers say hi..

Nubarus · May 16, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

A front line class's defense is the backline.

I see it a bit different, in a sense it's true, but if you totally need to rely on others for defense you present a major flaw in the overal picture.
Besides healers can preserve their energy instead of having to heal one person constantly in battle and loose most of their energy in the process.

NerfHerder · May 16, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

A front line class's defense is the backline...spec for output and kill things like warriors and sins do....the self defence and enchants really dont hold up as been very viable in *insert some stupidly high %* of pve.. take Sy for your team and let your backline do its job while you do yours..

/waves...monks/rits/er infuzers say hi..

So the Warrior, Assassin, and Dervish should all have pretty much the same cookie cutter build to do high DPS. Its ok that the Warrior and Assassin can use a Scythe better. Mysticism has no place in PvE meta. Dervishes were never meant to use multiple enchantments. Your in a PUG group. You have to choose between a War, Sin, or Derv. Make sure you pick the Sin because he will do the most DPS. The only distinguishable characteristic of the Dervish is that he should be overall weaker than a War or Sin. Dont even worry about making it easier on the guy thats trying keep you alive. If your squishy and you die, its your healers fault. Anet does not need to balance the melee classes.

Is this what you think? cuz, thats what it sounds like.

Xenomortis · May 16, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nubarus

I see it a bit different, in a sense it's true, but if you totally need to rely on others for defense you present a major flaw in the overal picture.
Besides healers can preserve their energy instead of having to heal one person constantly in battle and loose most of their energy in the process.

If your monk is burning all his energy on heals then both you and your monk are doing something wrong.
Two steps to fix this:

First, point your monk in the general direction of the Protection Prayers line.
Second, learn to kill shit.

Self defense is typically not very good and when you hit 80-90 armour, you don't need much more. The Derv has AL 70 and can easily reach 85 with Windwalker Insignia (ZV, SoH and AoHM) and should frequently hit 90 if their backline followed the Protection tip.
If you want any more protection other than what your backline and armour provide, then I suggest no more than Conviction or Armour of Sanctity.

Overloading on self-defense means you don't kill things very quickly. Physicals are very good at killing, casters just don't come close. Loading up on too much defense just reduces your killing ability and reduces you to a tank - tanking is neither fun nor effective for general PvE.

Nubarus · May 16, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If your monk is burning all his energy on heals then both you and your monk are doing something wrong.
Two steps to fix this:

First, point your monk in the general direction of the Protection Prayers line.
Second, learn to kill shit.

Self defense is typically not very good and when you hit 80-90 armour, you don't need much more. The Derv has AL 70 and can easily reach 85 with Windwalker Insignia (ZV, SoH and AoHM) and should frequently hit 90 if their backline followed the Protection tip.
If you want any more protection other than what your backline and armour provide, then I suggest no more than Conviction or Armour of Sanctity.

Overloading on self-defense means you don't kill things very quickly. Physicals are very good at killing, casters just don't come close. Loading up on too much defense just reduces your killing ability and reduces you to a tank - tanking is neither fun nor effective for general PvE.

Well, clearly you have not read a single thing i wrote so far, the defense skills i mentioned are those 2, none of them are in any PvX Build, as for killing shit, no probs there either.

I never said I have any probs with anything, I actually pointed out that it's all very easy in HM.
As for monks, I never ever use healing, only prot monks and paragon, healing is too weak in HM play.

What I am talking about I have played as a Prot monk in random parties and there where melee types in there with zero self defense and required constant looking after, one of those is no prob, but 2 or 3 of them idiots is really getting anoying, unless you play as a paragon.
But then, them types also manage to wander outside shout range during battle and die.

When I play any of my melee classes who all have defensive skills, kill very fast and hardly ever die, especially with my Dervish who whipes out mobs with 1-3 swipes in HM.
Instead of focussing all my defense on the backline I shift the bar in the middle, me and the backline provide defense and dmg buffs to have a good mix of protection and massive dmg output.

This way if one or two party members fall in combat the chain is not broken, if one of the two holds all the cards in a certain area and they fall it all collapses.

The saying here is: Don't put all your eggs in one basket, if you drop it you break em all.

maxxfury · May 16, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

So the Warrior, Assassin, and Dervish should all have pretty much the same cookie cutter build to do high DPS. Its ok that the Warrior and Assassin can use a Scythe better. Mysticism has no place in PvE meta. Dervishes were never meant to use multiple enchantments. Your in a PUG group. You have to choose between a War, Sin, or Derv. Make sure you pick the Sin because he will do the most DPS. The only distinguishable characteristic of the Dervish is that he should be overall weaker than a War or Sin. Dont even worry about making it easier on the guy thats trying keep you alive. If your squishy and you die, its your healers fault. Anet does not need to balance the melee classes.

Is this what you think? cuz, thats what it sounds like.

welcome to optimizing a gw team! if your frontline is concentrating on smashing stuff up....and not stopping to heal them selves..
stuff dies faster=less prot/heals needed=easier on backline

The game is setup in such a way that specializing or focusing you efforts in one direction is generally the best and most efficient way to do it.

And no, mysticism isnt atm good enough to be a part of the meta..

and if your tryin to optimize your setup..there are only so many skills upto that level. So there WILL be overlaps with the op skills..

And dont forget the op is "HIGH DAMAGE output derv" not "tanking derv" or "jack of all trades semi damage semi tank derv"

NerfHerder · May 17, 2010, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

welcome to optimizing a gw team! if your frontline is concentrating on smashing stuff up....and not stopping to heal them selves..
stuff dies faster=less prot/heals needed=easier on backline

The game is setup in such a way that specializing or focusing you efforts in one direction is generally the best and most efficient way to do it.

And no, mysticism isnt atm good enough to be a part of the meta..

and if your tryin to optimize your setup..there are only so many skills upto that level. So there WILL be overlaps with the op skills..

And dont forget the op is "HIGH DAMAGE output derv" not "tanking derv" or "jack of all trades semi damage semi tank derv"

You have a valid point. Its my bad for trying to turn this thread into my QQ for a Dervish skill update/balance. Looking back on my post it sounds pretty smartass. My apologies. And I think Nubarus kind of sums up what I meant about a balanced build. A little defense(1 or 2 skills) goes along way, specially if you play with pugs or arent using a gimmick team build.

Franksalot · May 17, 2010, 08:48 AM // 08:48

this all reminds me of my guild... we're run by a monk who is obsessed with dmg... Now almost all my guild dislike melee and run casters, i regularly get referred to as the smelly melee. Well anyway everyones running casters the main healer is generally a UA who is far more interested in rezzing you with full energy than acting like a proper monk and i'm the only frontline... on top of which i'm dervish so i'm vulnerable to Melee and Caster counters. Now i can and have put together builds that can do massive dmg, 400-500 dmg + per hit but its no use being able to do that if you can't stand up long enough to keep hitting. Now i know the old tank and spank is not really used in GW everyone much prefers to just out damage the enemy but a dervish without some manner of self defense will die... alot and just rack up DP which in HM can make you next to useless and just make the game not fun. Dervishes should be balanced between defense and dmg, don't believe me? Look at mysticism while the numbers are messed up and next to useless it heals on enchant end... you were ment to run in use offensive enchants which then heal you so you can make up for being a squishy on the frontline. The way i see it the Warrior should be the strongest with lowest dmg, the Sin should be the weakest with highest dmg and the derv should be inbetween, but the balance is all wrong.

maxxfury · May 17, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

My apologies. And I think Nubarus kind of sums up what I meant about a balanced build. A little defense(1 or 2 skills) goes along way, specially if you play with pugs or arent using a gimmick team build.

Worry less. seriously ^ xD sometimes my replies sounds quite harsh, but arent intended to, i also apologize for that... peace

For me that defensive skill would be SY or IaU (which IS actually epic!) Staying on your feet > been sat down not hitting so that is ALSO a pseudo-offense skill too, add the armour bonus that IGNORE the +armour cap!
For pugs i can see that maybe if your running heart of fury for IAS you could take a stance for some extra defense, to ease up the load on *potentially* crap backline. But something that has a cast time takes away from your job of swinging you scythe killing stuff!

good day sir!

Cuilan · May 17, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franksalot

The way i see it the Warrior should be the strongest with lowest dmg, the Sin should be the weakest with highest dmg and the derv should be inbetween, but the balance is all wrong.

That would make warriors garbage and leave dervish just as unwanted by many. Get a paragon or a post update mesmer to do their job and teach the monks in your guild. Either that or make an ele for Ether Renewal so you won't have to worry about such nonsense.

Franksalot · May 18, 2010, 11:52 AM // 11:52

see this is where the problem of no tactics other than out dmg the enemy comes in. There needs to be more risk for backliners making warriors as Tanks and KD spammers more viable so that they can keep the enemy away. Also dervishes could possibly do with some front line AOE buffs so they can strengthen the frontline be more useful. Say for example ....
mystic healing could be an AOE regen skill or something along thoses lines.

t00115577 · May 18, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Never seen any probs with derv mains, see them often hit hundreds of dmg in single attacks even in HM.

Its true that they are not as effective as sin and warr primaries (and possibly even ranger) but they still easily do enough dmg to blow stuff up hella fast in HM.

PS. Any frontline on a balanced team with a self heal is an idiot. Leave the healing to the backline, you kill stuff.

Franksalot · May 18, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

PS. Any frontline on a balanced team with a self heal is an idiot. Leave the healing to the backline, you kill stuff.

PS any frontline should know their going to take the most dmg and reducing the amount of healing your backline needs to do on you can help alot.

maxxfury · May 19, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franksalot

PS any frontline should know their going to take the most dmg and reducing the amount of healing your backline needs to do on you can help alot.

PS, ps(thats prot spirit btw) Pre prot front line with ps and go go go!

IF your fronline is always stopping to heal them selves to "save the backline energy and having to heal" that leads to two things,
1> stuff dies slower.
2> backline STILL needs to heal as much cos the fight is longer.

Front line kills...its best all around for everyone, less pressure, shorter engagements, easier life for monks. Its why wammo's are loked down on, they waste too much time healing them selves and not killing! you take a backline for a reason...to do all that for you! its just more efficient...

When i monk i make sure they DONT take their own heals..hell usually tell them to take frenzy! and keep a ps on them.. at most for a derv with an enchant based IAS(heart of fury), id be fine with them taking a block stance or IaU* but more than that they start to sacrifice damage..

Or just take an ER infuzer in the backline, its almost impossible for them to run dry and they NEED to spam all over the team..its what they do. So in that case its even more of a waste of time to self heal as frontline.

*IaU is epic vs kd's and for extra armour stack.

reaper with no name · May 19, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

PS, ps(thats prot spirit btw) Pre prot front line with ps and go go go!

IF your fronline is always stopping to heal them selves to "save the backline energy and having to heal" that leads to two things,
1> stuff dies slower.
2> backline STILL needs to heal as much cos the fight is longer.

Front line kills...its best all around for everyone, less pressure, shorter engagements, easier life for monks. Its why wammo's are loked down on, they waste too much time healing them selves and not killing! you take a backline for a reason...to do all that for you! its just more efficient...

When i monk i make sure they DONT take their own heals..hell usually tell them to take frenzy! and keep a ps on them.. at most for a derv with an enchant based IAS(heart of fury), id be fine with them taking a block stance or IaU* but more than that they start to sacrifice damage..

Or just take an ER infuzer in the backline, its almost impossible for them to run dry and they NEED to spam all over the team..its what they do. So in that case its even more of a waste of time to self heal as frontline.

*IaU is epic vs kd's and for extra armour stack.

Exactly. When you're bringing defensive skills, what are you hoping to do? Put less stress on the monk (since he would have healed you otherwise). But you're sacrificing both time and attribute points. That means less offense, so enemies live longer. If enemies are living longer, they are doing more damage to the party, thereby putting more stress on the monk, which is exactly what you were trying to avoid in the first place by bringing defensive skills! Yet all you really accomplished was to slow down your killing rate.

Nubarus · May 20, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

You guys make it look like we are talking about some full force defensive build, all we are talking about is 1 or 2 (mostly dmg reduction skills even) without shifting any attribute points.

As for killing stuff apparently slower according to you, it's not the case, I kill foes so fast I actually stopped using Spiteful Spirit a looooong time ago because that skill was wasted on foes with an average lifespan of 2-6 seconds, sometimes a little longer if there are like 3-5+ prot/heal foes in there. (in HM btw)

And before you start about that, no, I don't use that sad cheesy discord bs either.

NerfHerder · May 20, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

.. id be fine with them taking a block stance or IaU* but more than that they start to sacrifice damage..

*IaU is epic vs kd's and for extra armour stack.

I can agree with that. As long as whatever defense you take does not interfere with your DPS its no big deal.